RHR: your guide on keto, with Dr. Joseph Mercola
Fasting keto combines a diet with a very low carbohydrate and occasional fasting, and this can improve your sleep, cell regeneration and intestinal health. Learn more about this lifestyle in this episode of RHR.
In this episode, we discuss:
- How Dr. Mercola started with keto and fasting
- Three benefits of intermittent fasting
- How safe is a post?
- Fasting in terms of ancestral health
- Possible disadvantages of long-term keto and water starvation
- How to start a keto post
- Tips on how to make a keto post for you
Show notes:
Hello everyone, this is Chris Cresser. Welcome to another episode Radio Health Revolution, I am very happy to be interviewed this week. I'm going to talk to Dr. Joe Mercola. Dr. Mercola was trained as a certified family doctor and treated more than 10,000 patients, and then 22 years ago went full-time on his website. Over the past 15 years, it has been the most visited site on natural health online. He had many best-selling books, but his latest book is about keto, Fuel oilwas the number one book sold in the United States when it was released in May 2017.
Now Dr. Mercola has a new book called Ketofastand I'm really looking forward to talking with him about it, because when I read it – he sent me a preliminary review copy – I was glad to see that his approach to the ketogenic diet and intermittent fasting and fasting is very similar to my own and to what I came through my own experiments, as well as through the work with hundreds of patients in this combination of keto and fasting. And he has many of the same problems that I have with respect to the ketogenic diet in many people and during the long-term fasting of many people.
And I really like how he connects him to a cyclical approach with cycles of intermittent fasting and ketosis, and I think that it is a safer and more tolerable way to get the benefits of fasting without prolonged fasting in water. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Let's dive in.
Chris Cresser: Dr. Joe Mercola, thank you very much for being here. I have been looking forward to it for some time.
Joseph Mercola: Well, it's very nice to be with you. And I want, before we start, thank you very much for presenting our views on Joe Rogan and really helping the world understand the truth about natural medicine.
Chris Cresser: Oh, thank you for that. It was, it was difficult, but I hope it was worth it.
How Dr. Mercola started with keto and fasting
Chris Cresser: Therefore, I am pleased to talk about fasting, ketogenic diet and, in particular, about the approach that you set out in your last book. And before we do this, I would just like to hear what led you personally on this path. How did you first become interested in ketogenic diets and fasting, and how did you get to where you are now?
Joseph Mercola: Well, I was motivated to start a keto because of the hype about it a few years ago, and I wrote a book Fuel oilA few years ago, in fact, that week when it was launched, it was the best-selling, best-selling book in the whole country.
Chris Cresser: Awesome.
Joseph Mercola: Rated Nielsen. Thus, I was convinced of the value of this approach in terms of metabolism and experienced some side effects, starting it myself, and learning through trial and error, I realized that there are some things that you should not do. And then I realized that fasting, full multi-day fasting, usually five days or so, was one of the most powerful metabolic interventions that I have ever seen and observed clinically,
And, of course, historically, it has been used for thousands of years, and almost every major religion on the planet combines an approach. It seemed to make sense. Therefore, I would like to continue my book Fuel oilHe was going to combine this with the many days of water starvation, and that was the purpose of the book. And when I began to investigate this, I realized that I was wrong. Therefore, I have significantly changed it to get the maximum benefit you can get with the least amount of work.
Chris Cresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah.
Chris Cresser: And the potential flaws that we'll talk about.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah.
Chris Cresser: Because this is definitely my experience as a doctor. It is interesting that when you look at the study of the post, it seems like a miracle cure.
Joseph Mercola: Sure sure.
Chris Cresser: You can find research for fasting for almost all chronic diseases and from severe autoimmune diseases to cancer of any inflammatory condition. But, of course, the post, we can't do it forever,
Joseph Mercola: No, no, no, you can't. But the more often you can, the more benefit you get.
Chris Cresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: Let me interrupt by saying that there is one advantage that I did not mention in the book, but after writing, I realized that the benefits of fasting in a dream are extraordinary. Do you even wear an Oura ring?
Chris Cresser: Yes Yes.
Joseph Mercola: Well, then you know that when you fast, oh my gosh. Your readiness score passes through the roof.
Chris Cresser: Yes it is unbelievable. All this fabric repair, which I definitely want to dive deeper into. But you have a section in your book about post historyThat I think is interesting. Because it was a long time ago. You could say that this is probably one of the original interventions in health.
Joseph Mercola: Absolutely no doubt. It has been used for thousands of years. I mean, we have Plato and Hippocrates promoting it 2,000 years ago. And it began in the US around the 1800s with the national hygiene movement.
Chris Cresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: He really did not become popular until Herbert Shelton began and popularized him in 1911, about 100 years ago. And today we have Alan Goldhamer on the neck because of the words at the TrueNorth clinic in Northern California, which posted more people than anywhere else in North America, for 16,000 people, from five to 40 days.
Chris Cresser: Yeah. And, of course, there are many other benefits. I think about myself personally, just looking at my relationship with food, which illuminates the post, and not for cooking and cleaning, I have to say – I appreciate it very much a day when I am busy – I love food, probably the same Much like anyone I know, and cooking and cooking, and I'm a complete gourmet. But I have to say that sometimes I just get tired of the whole process.
Joseph Mercola: I am really surprised to hear this. I thought you would ignore this a little more.
Chris Cresser: Oh no.
Joseph Mercola: You eat to live.
Chris Cresser: I love food. I mean, I cook all the time. I love going to farmers markets. I am a real gourmet, but there are times when I need to take a break from this, and I also like what the post helps.
Three benefits of intermittent fasting
Chris Cresser: So let's talk a little about some of the mechanisms of the post. I mentioned this in previous shows, but you go deep into it in your book.
Fasting Keto can help your cellular health, intestinal integrity and your sleep. Check out this RHR release to learn more about how to combine keto and fasting, as I speak with Dr. Joseph Mercol. #lowcarb #keto #chriskresser
So you talk about autophagyand of course a few others. And a lot of attention has been paid to stem cells and other methods of dealing with stem cells, which may not be so safe or not so well proven at the moment. So why should we consider fasting in terms of the benefits of cellular communication?
1. It improves your sleep.
Joseph Mercola: Of course, I think that one of the most important is the problem with sleep that I just mentioned. So, I mean that sleep is close, if not nearly, as important as proper nutrition.
Chris Cresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: And many people do not appreciate it.
Chris Cresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: So, and I am sure that you are not one of them, I know. But many people do not. I certainly did not, until I read Matthew Walker's book.
Chris Cresser: Yes, great book.
Joseph Mercola: He just gave a good interview, a two-hour interview with Rhonda Patrick on her podcast. But it is powerful. But back to autophagy – and I’m sure most of the people who listened to it have heard it before, but let me briefly explain it before, because some may not have heard it before.
2. Activates autophagy
So in my opinion The main reason you want to fast is to activate autophagyWhat does autophagy mean? This means that your body essentially identifies defective and dysfunctional cellular parts, rather than whole cells, because the process for this is called apoptosisBut these cellular parts, these organelles, they target them, and then the lysosomes snap onto them, and they release these digestive enzymes, splitting them into constituent elements, amino acids and fatty acids, and then it processes them into new parts. And this is another advantage that you get regenerationwhat you get after how fast.
So the magic of fasting really, I mean, of course, there are some of the costs that you mentioned, you say, time, effort and energy, your clarity of mind improves. But the main advantage is when you overfeed and give your body the raw materials for restoring new cellular components.
Chris Cresser: I do not think it is well understood, in fact. And I think I really like how clearly you did this in your book, and especially when it comes to re-feeding, which we’ll talk about earlier, this is one of the ways to eliminate the potential disadvantages of fasting and cyclical execution. I do not think it is well understood that Some of the main benefits you get from fasting are only when you start eating again.,
Joseph Mercola: Like this. And this is one of the reasons, one of many, why I do not recommend lengthy posts. Because there are not so many cycles.
Chris Cresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: And in addition to the fact that when you fast, as I said during sleep, your readiness rate rises to heaven. This means that you can really train hard, and you have the energy to do it. And so I do this keto starvation twice a week, and I do it a few days before I train hard in my strength training.
Chris Cresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: And then I do it by fasting, and then I eat a lot of protein, a lot of carbohydrates, and this is just a terrific way to improve your metabolic health.
3. It improves your bowel health.
Chris Cresser: Yes, well, I want to learn more about the various ways to do this a bit. Because I think that this is where the magic happens, how you actually set it up, make it work, repeat it cyclically with the training regimen, etc. But I think that we are both interested in the question of fasting – intestinal health.
Joseph Mercola: Yes.
Chris Cresser: So, I see many patients who have SIBO and all types of long-term GI. Problems. And maybe they did several procedures for the SIBO, they adopted rifaximin, and we did botanical protocols and other strategies. And either he leaves for a while and returns, or he never leaves at all. And I am becoming increasingly interested in fasting and ketogenic diet and cyclic keto and fasting as a tool for solving these problems. So can you talk a little about this?
Joseph Mercola: Yes, I can not disagree. Because, and I am not sure that someone understands the mechanism exactly, but most likely, this is a jump to the beginning of your microbiome health. It improves diversity and helps to eliminate some of the intestinal problems with leaks, you have, in fact, such spaces within the membranes in the intestines, through which large molecules can flow and cause serious problems.
So it really facilitates the healing of this permeability through the gap, the path and increases the integrity of the inner shell. So, I like it for this purpose. This is a kind of side benefit. I do not see this as one of the main advantages, but many people suffer from this problem. So it is really nice.
Chris Cresser: Absolutely. Yes, I mean, we know from research that an elementary diet that I do not recommend here, but this is the most effective treatment for SIBO. And I think that what happens with the elementary diet is even stronger during fasting. You just give, you starve the bacteria that are overgrown in the small intestine. You do not give them any source of food, they cannot multiply, and this turns out to be more effective than antibiotics.
Therefore, I am curious that we sometimes used uBiome and other laboratories for serial testing of the microbiome with the help of such interventions. So, I have an idea when I read your book that maybe we will get some patients to use the keto-quick approach and test it before and after with uBiome and see what we can detect.
Joseph Mercola: Yes, please let me know. That sounds like an interesting study.
How safe is a post?
Chris Cresser: Absolutely. Ok, so we talked a little about the history of fasting, the mechanisms of fasting and why it works. What about safety and contraindications? Because, as you can see, I think that with respect to fasting, many misleading statements have been made that this is really dangerous. And on the other hand, I think that there are some irresponsible statements about fasting and insufficient attention in some respects about who should not do this. So, where are you about this?
Joseph Mercola: Well, thank you for drawing the attention of everyone to this, because sometimes this is something that I cannot mention. But you are absolutely right. starvation not for all, at least partial fasting or, of course, a high-water day fasting. But this is a relatively small minority of people, and who are these people? For underweight people who lack body weight, we obviously would not want to fast. Or if you have an eating disorder, it will only aggravate it. And then those who, if someone is pregnant or even breastfeeding,
Chris Cresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: So it's not like that, it's not a lot of people.
Chris Cresser: Not.
Joseph Mercola: Probably much less than 5 percent. I guess even less than 1 percent of the population.
Chris Cresser: Sure sure. Just nice to know. I had pregnant women, and breastfeeding women ask me about fasting. Therefore, I always wanted to clarify this. Because when you are pregnant or nursing, you are really trying to grow and feed a growing baby. This is a priority there.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah.
Chris Cresser: But of course.
Joseph Mercola: Anabolism is the key.
Chris Cresser: Yes, absolutely.
Joseph Mercola: And the beautiful thing about posting is that you switch between anabolism, catabolism, and almost nobody does it. And I am sure that you are familiar with the work of Satchin Panda?
Chris Cresser: Yes Yes.
Joseph Mercola: Where 90 percent of people eat more than 12 hours a day, and this is not even enough for intermittent fasting.
Fasting in terms of ancestral health
Chris Cresser: Yes, absolutely. It looks like a permanent grazing. The cyclical thing is really interesting for me, because I know you, and I really appreciate the hereditary perspective. And if you think about what probably happened in the natural and evolutionary environment, people did not fasting voluntarily. But they had natural periods of food scarcity. And then these periods of food shortages were naturally followed by periods of food abundance after they killed an animal or something like that.
Thus, our bodies evolved in this environment of cyclical periods of lack of food and abundance of food, and it makes sense that our metabolic mechanism will be adapted to work in this way. So I like how this approach really mimics that.
Joseph Mercola: Yes, and you know, unfortunately, Chris, I do not think that there are many approaches that copy this model. It’s like an all-or-nothing component.
Chris Cresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: You go all the time or do not, and perhaps some people do a cyclic keto. But integration in a partial post, I think, is the missing key part.
Chris Cresser: This is where we also agree 100%. I was so glad to see your book, because this is the approach that I naturally found in my clinic. Because in fact, I have seen many shortcomings of the ketogenic diet 24/7 and excessive fasting. So I know that you have experienced some of them yourself. You mentioned it. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about some of the shortcomings of the ongoing keto and the continuing dark sides of the water starvation.
Possible disadvantages of long-term keto and water starvation
Joseph Mercola: Well, there are two separate questions. Because if you do keto all the time, as some people claim, I think that most people will face problems primarily with their hormonal systems, and especially with your thyroid, Вы развиваете некоторое сопротивление щитовидной железы, но затем вы действительно находитесь в этой постоянной катаболической фазе, когда вы просто разрушаете свое тело, и это хорошо, но вам нужно его нарастить.
Но общее убеждение, конечно, было то, что я поняла, когда я только начала, что это было похоже на диету, на которой ты должен быть всегда. И я очень быстро понял, что это плохая идея, потому что через несколько месяцев вы начинаете терять мышечную массуЭто не очень хорошая стратегия, особенно если вы стареете. И саркопения просто наступает почти беспощадно.
Крис Крессер: Yeah.
Джозеф Меркола: Так что это основной компонент. И тогда у вас нет этого компонента регенерации, часть пиршества отсутствует. И это то, что огромные, почти волшебные преимущества вы получаете, интегрируя это циклически.
Крис Крессер: Да, я также видел даже у людей, которые первоначально имели феноменальные результаты с кето для похудения, что они достигли плато или даже начали двигаться назад в другом направлении. И это было, в некотором смысле, сложным для меня, мой подход с ними обычно был на самом деле пусть они начнут есть больше carbohydrateчто показалось им нелогичным, потому что у них были такие отличные результаты от кето. Но это часто может запустить процесс потери веса снова. И я думаю, что вы объяснили, почему в книге, с точки зрения того, как задействуются все эти механизмы, когда вы начинаете процесс повторного заполнения.
Джозеф Меркола: Right.
Крис Крессер: А как насчет водного голодания? Это мощная стратегия. Это то, что имеет много истории за этим. Но каковы некоторые недостатки там?
Джозеф Меркола: Что ж, одним из основных недостатков является то, что это имело исторический смысл, и именно поэтому это было сделано на протяжении тысячелетий и до сих пор сделано. Но мы живем в другом веке. 21-го века, которого раньше не было, очевидно. И один из основных вкладов за последние сто лет заключается в том, что химическая промышленность производит большое количество химических веществ. Десятки тысяч разных химикатов.
И большинство из этих химикатов жирорастворимы. И, будучи жирорастворимыми, они имеют тенденцию к хранению. Не метаболизируется, но хранится в ваших жировых клетках. Поэтому, когда вы выполняете это многодневное водное голодание, особенно без еды, вы делаете две вещи. Во-первых, вы высвобождаете токсины, и большинство людей – и я знаю, что у вас большой опыт в этом – недостаточно метаболически здоровы, чтобы усваивать эти токсины. В результате они имеют побочный эффект. Почти все знают о людях, которые постятся в воде, они чувствуют себя несчастными.
Крис Крессер: Right.
Джозеф Меркола: И это в значительной степени, я полагаю, является результатом этих освобожденных токсинов, которые не метаболизируются и не выводятся должным образом. Так вот. Другой, как врач, которого вы тоже хорошо знаете об этом, compliance,
Крис Крессер: Yeah.
Джозеф Меркола: Соблюдение этого требования для населения в целом составляет менее 1 процента. Вам придется чуть не убить кого-то, прежде чем он захочет провести многодневный пост на воде.
Крис Крессер: Да, это правда.
Джозеф Меркола: Так что это просто прагматичный подход.
Крис Крессер: Yeah.
Джозеф Меркола: То есть это два больших. Но еще один практический способ заключается в том, что если вы собираетесь проводить многодневное водное голодание, я имею в виду, если вы не имеете избыточного веса, и есть люди, которые потеряли 300, 400 фунтов, делая это, вы сможете делать это только несколько раз в год, Первоначально вы могли бы делать пять, шесть, семь раз в течение первого года, но после этого, вероятно, не чаще одного раза в квартал, что означает, что вы будете только циклически входить и выходить и получать эти рекомендуемые преимущества, как пять раз в год. год. Что, к примеру, практически клинически незначительно. Так что, да, вы получите действительно большую выгоду, когда будете повторять, но вам придется давать другое, если вы не ели в течение нескольких дней. Но если вы делаете это быстро, вы можете делать это 100 раз в год.
Крис Крессер: Да, это удивительно, если вы делаете это два раза в неделю.
Джозеф Меркола: И вы получаете эти преимущества два раза в неделю.
Как начать пост кето
Крис Крессер: Да, да, это довольно удивительно. Итак, да, давайте поговорим о том, давайте сейчас вдаваться в это, и почему вы не определяете кето пост для всех? А потом мы поговорим, расскажем о мельчайших подробностях о том, как вы упорядочиваете их с упражнениями, а также о том, как вы переходите к ним. Потому что мне нравится, как вы предоставили своего рода готовую рампу для людей, которые не имеют опыта в этом, чтобы они избежали некоторых потенциальных недостатков, если они просто начнут заниматься всем.
Джозеф Меркола: Да, ну, я не думаю, что вы можете начать целую свинью. И вы должны быть метаболически гибкими. Ваше тело должно иметь способность сжигать жир в качестве основного топлива. И более 80 процентов людей в этой стране, как вы хорошо знаете, инсулинорезистентны. И эти люди изначально не могут делать кето пост. Они должны переходить в нее через программу ограничения калорий, и мой любимый, конечно, прерывистый пост.
Сжатие еды (и разрешить в течение переходного периода)
Джозеф Меркола: Итак, и это не просто 12-часовой. Потому что я не думаю, что какие-либо преимущества происходят 12 часов. Вероятно, он начинается в 14 часов, но я думаю, что вы получите большую часть преимуществ от 16 до 18 часов, когда вы не едите. Таким образом, в противном случае есть в течение шести-восьми часов в день. Что является полной противоположностью тому, что ест большинство людей.
Крис Крессер: Наверняка. И во время этого прерывистого быстрого периода, есть много разных способов, которые рекомендуется сделать это. Некоторые рекомендуют только воду и некалорийные напитки, такие как черный кофе или черный чай. Другие говорят, что можно пить немного жира в кофе или чае во время кратковременного поста. Где вы приземлились на это?
Джозеф Меркола: мне нравится ходить без калорийпотому что я действительно хочу попытаться получить как можно больше пользы от аутофагии. И, конечно же, большинство калорий будет препятствовать аутофагии. Но на переходном этапе, начальном четырехнедельном этапе, который я рекомендую всем сделать, и если они этого не делают … Например, вы могли бы начать это на этой неделе, потому что вы делаете это. Но если вы этого не сделали, то вам нужно по существу работать до того момента, когда вы едите только в течение шести-восьми часов. И затем делайте это в течение четырех недель подряд. Теперь, на этом переходном этапе, я думаю, что можно есть немного еды и закусок, особенно кокосовое масло или масло MCT, если вы чувствуете усталость. Потому что ваше тело должно стать метаболически гибким, а вы еще нет. Так что вам понадобится источник топлива. И эти типы жиров будут быстро поглощаться и преобразовываться в энергию, так что вы будете чувствовать себя лучше. Но как только вы это сделаете, я не думаю, что будет разумно, по крайней мере, с моей точки зрения –
Крис Крессер: Right. Таким образом, вы сокращаете время приема пищи до шести-восьми часов в течение одного месяца, и это не калории в течение этого периода, если только вам не нужен переходный период, когда у вас может быть немного жира в течение этого времени. И что потом? Какой шаг второй?
Съешь свою последнюю еду минимум за три часа до сна
Джозеф Меркола: Ну, это то, что я узнал методом проб и ошибок. Итак, допустим, что вы закончили, у вас есть шестичасовой прием пищи. Итак, ваш первый прием пищи в 9 часов утра, последний прием пищи – в три часа.
Крис Крессер: Три, да.
Джозеф Меркола: Таким образом, единственное предостережение в этом окне прерывистой подачи убедитесь, что ваш последний прием пищи по крайней мере за три часа до сна, что может быть социальной проблемой для многих людей. Но я думаю, что это метаболическая задача, и это ваша цель. И если вы едите еду в то время, сделать это действительно, действительно легкий,
Крис Крессер: Right.
Джозеф Меркола: Вам не нужно много энергии, когда вы спите. Это неблагоразумное время загружать ваше тело топливом. Итак, ваш последний прием пищи был в три часа дня. Вы приходите завтракать в девять, что будет обычным днем, временем, когда вы будете есть. Таким образом, вместо того, чтобы есть обычную еду, у вас есть только одна еда. И эта еда примерно от 300 до 500 калорий.
Тщательно планируйте свои калории
Джозеф Меркола: По сути, вы берете мышечную массу и умножаете ее в 3,5 раза, а затем получаете калории. Итак, и это ваша еда на день. И ты больше ничего не ешь в течение 24 часов. По сути, вы делаете частичный пост в 42 часа, скажем, на 500 калорий. И это магия, и я уточню детали чуть позже. Потому что я много лет постился в течение шести часов, и я не теряю вес, когда я перерываюсь быстро. Предполагая, что я встречаюсь с соответствующим количеством калорий.
Но в тот момент, когда я выполняю частичный пост, на следующий день я теряю от трех до пяти фунтов, и это хорошо. Большая часть воды, конечно. Это не тощая масса тела. Это вода. Но вы все равно проигрываете. Вы не теряете этот вес, когда вы периодически поститесь.
Крис Крессер: Right.
Джозеф Меркола: Это сильное предположение, что когда вы делаете это, клинически происходит что-то очень важное.
Крис Крессер: Итак, это твой кето-быстрый день. Итак, вы некоторое время постились, вы адаптировались к жиру и добавили кето-пост. Вы потребляете от 300 до 600 калорий, в зависимости от вашей мышечной массы. И вы проходите это очень ясно в книге. На самом деле есть отличная таблица, которая проведет вас через это, что я нашел очень полезным. А потом-
Джозеф Меркола: Хорошо, позвольте мне быть конкретным, что это за еда, хотя.
Крис Крессер: Yeah.
Джозеф Меркола: У нас на самом деле есть компаньон KetoFast Cookbook где вы можете создавать блюда, предназначенные для этого. Но то, что я делаю, чтобы упростить это, – и я на самом деле несколько изменил его с момента публикации книги, – это то, что 50 процентов этих калорий, я считаю, должны быть белковыми. Потому что это будет питать вашу систему детоксикации.
Так что где-то от 20 до 50 грамм или около того. Но вот ключ, и хорошо, позвольте мне закончить это. Таким образом, у вас есть белок, но у вас может быть меньше, конечно, меньше, чем 20 граммов углеводов и, в идеале, меньше, чем 10, и такое же количество жира. Так что относительно небольшое количество жиров и углеводов, а также белка. Но это очень специфический тип белка. Это не гамбургер. Это даже не мясо. По большей части это растительный белок.
Исключением будет коллаген, который содержит очень и очень мало аминокислот с разветвленной цепью, что будет стимулировать mTOR, что является последним, что вы хотите получить, когда пытаетесь активировать аутофагию. Потому что эти разветвленные цепи будут активировать mTOR и подавлять аутофагию. Таким образом, коллаген практически не имеет разветвленных цепей и растительных белков. У нас есть протеиновый порошок на веганской основе, который я очень люблю. Итак, у меня есть это, немного коллагена и немного хлореллы, чтобы составить этот белок в те дни.
Крис Крессер: Хорошо. Итак, вы едите определенное количество белка, вы держите углеводы менее 20 граммов или даже 10, и тогда остаток от вашей калории от 300 до 600 будет жирным.
Джозеф Меркола: Yes.
Крис Крессер: Хорошо. Итак, тогда вы делаете это, а затем ваш день, на который ссылаются, на следующий день?
Джозеф Меркола: Это на следующий день. Но есть еще одно предупреждение. Потому что большинство людей принимают добавки, и многие люди идентифицировали себя как имеющие MTHR генетический SNP—
Крис Крессер: Yeah.
Джозеф Меркола: Так что они принимают метилфолат или метил В12. Так что в те дни, когда вы проводите кето-пост, это день, когда вы этого не делаете, не принимайте метилфолат, Не принимайте метил B12. И почему, потому что это в значительной степени анаболические добавки. Это добавки, которые беременные женщины принимают, чтобы построить своего ребенка. Поэтому последнее, что вы хотите сделать, это стимулировать анаболизм. Вы хотите стимулировать катаболизм. Поэтому не принимайте метил В12 или метилфолат. Или молозиво также сделало бы что-то подобное, или даже кетоновые добавки –
Крис Крессер: Right.
Джозеф Меркола: Как и кетоновые эфиры, потому что, что происходит, это действительно интересно. Кетоны по существу расщепляют масляную кислоту или бутират. А бутират на самом деле увеличивает ацетил-кофермент А, который также подавляет аутофагию. Так что просто позвольте своему телу создавать свои собственные кетоны. Вы не берете никаких дополнений.
Крис Крессер: Да ладно Итак, у нас есть эти предостережения для постного дня, и как вы приближаетесь к указанному дню?
Джозеф Меркола: О, упомянутый день – праздник.
Крис Крессер: Веселый день, да.
Запланируйте свой день кормления
Джозеф Меркола: Там не слишком много ограничений, кроме высококачественных продуктов. Но я бы сходил с ума от разветвленных цепей. В те дни у меня есть сывороточный белок. У меня много сывороточного белка. И это тот день, когда я думаю, что силовые тренировки. Это тот день, когда вы действительно сильно толкаете его, напрягаете свое тело, потому что ваш сон будет через крышу. Это будет невероятно. И вы сможете тренироваться очень усердно, так что тогда у вас будет много хорошего белка. Может быть, 25, на 50 процентов больше, чем обычно. И вы даете своему телу топливо для восстановления ваших тканей.
О, другое преимущество, которое происходит, заключается в том, что когда вы во время частичного поста собираетесь активировать стволовые клетки. Я знаю, что вы упомянули об этом во вступлении, но мы как-то проскользнули мимо. И в наше время есть много людей, которые защищают стволовые клетки, как аутологичные, так и другие. И в первую очередь, это очень дорого. Я имею в виду, что минимальная сумма составляет 5000 долларов, но, скорее всего, 10000 или 20 тысяч долларов, и я уверен, что некоторые люди получают выгоды. Но нет сомнений, что это дорого. И есть некоторые опасения по поводу безопасности этих вещей тоже. Но я думаю, что гораздо лучше использовать собственные клетки и активировать их, что, безусловно, поможет кето-посту.
Крис Крессер: Absolutely. И для, вы сказали, может быть, в два раза больше вашего обычного потребления белка, Вы все еще едите это во время своего окна от шести до восьми часов,
Джозеф Меркола: Да да Там нет никаких изменений там. Right.
Крис Крессер: Просто для ясности. А как насчет углеводов для людей?
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, I think that I wouldn’t go a lot more than 150 grams of carbs, But those are the days when you have a lot of carbohydrates. There’s no question about it.
Chris Kresser: Right. And 150 is going to feel like a lot more than 10 the previous day.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah.
Chris Kresser: That’s going to feel like a feast, like you said. It’s going to be massive.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, it is actually a feast. In fact, most of my days I feel like I’ve had on Thanksgiving.
Chris Kresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: Just, I’m stuffed to the max. I’m eating somewhere about between 4,000 and 4,500 calories.
Chris Kresser: Right, okay. So sequencing this, you’ve got your intermittent fast day, you’ve got your keto fast day, then you’ve got, follow that by a refeed day, and I know from your book and just talking to you, you’re doing two keto fast days a week. So you recommend between one or two, depending on the goals and what’s going on for that person.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, and sometimes I’m not able to do that because I’m traveling. And when I’m traveling, I don’t have the luxury of maintaining my weight. Because if my weight is below a certain threshold, I will not do a keto fast day because I’ll lose too much weight.
Chris Kresser: Right, yeah. And what is that threshold for you in terms of, you mentioned low lean body mass as a contraindication for fasting.
Joseph Mercola: For me, it’s, I think, I’m probably, I’m under 10 percent body fat and I … like my basal weight is, I don’t like to go below 175. I try to get to 185 and I’m typically, I’m getting closer and I’ve gotten closer there since I’ve started increasing the protein on the partial fasting days.
Chris Kresser: Yeah. And just so everyone knows, you’re a tall guy. I was surprised when I met you. Because I’m tall. I didn’t know you were as tall as you are. So 175 is pretty lean for someone your height.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah. So I’d like to put on a little muscle mass. This year I turned 65, so sarcopenia becomes an issue. Fifty percent of people who are 80 years old have lost most of their muscle mass.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: So you’ve got to be aggressive and prevent that inevitability.
Chris Kresser: It’s super important for healthy aging. I learned that a while ago and I think it doesn’t get enough attention. Which of course is why strength training is so important as you age as well.
Joseph Mercola: And interesting—and Jason Fung addresses in his most recent book, The Longevity Solution, I think, I’m not sure of the exact title, but it’s his most recent book—that your needs and requirements for protein increase as you age.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: So it’s a little counterintuitive.
Chris Kresser: It’s kind of backwards for most people. A lot of people develop low stomach acid and GERD, and so they can’t tolerate as much protein when they age. And they end up eating less, I think.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Chris Kresser: So we got two, if you’re doing the full approach, you’re doing two keto fast days a week. Then you’re doing two refeed days a week. So then that leaves three days of the intermittent fast compressed food intake, право?
Track Your Nutrients
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, and whatever norm of calories that work for you in ranges. So, I mean, I go over them in my previous book, Fat for Fuel, And another interesting tool that many people may be unaware of is cronometer.com. It’s c-r-o-n-o-m-e-t-e-r. And I don’t think any expert would disagree that it is probably the finest nutrient tracker out there. It’s basically free if you use it on the desktop, and we actually have, if you put “/mercola,” you get one specifically designed for keto fasting.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: So it’s a really good tool. Have you used it before, Chris?
Chris Kresser: We use it all the time with our patients. I mean, there’s certain nutrients, as you know, that you can’t really measure very accurately in any body fluid. Like calcium. So we’ll often have people track their nutrient intake with this and get a sense of where they’re falling short in their diet. And what you learn is, in many cases, people are not getting enough nutrients, even when they’re on a “healthy diet.” So it’s a really super-important tool and you can, I love the way you’ve set it up. You put your body type in there and your conditions and what you’re trying to do and then it can give you the actual what you’re shooting for with keto fast.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah. It’s a really elegant system. I’m so delighted that Aaron was open to modify. And he initially designed the site for longevity because life extension is one of his primary goals. And it just happens to be, work out really well for this. Now life extension is one of my goals, which is one of the reasons I wrote this book. Because I would love to live beyond 120, which is not really physiologically possible at this point in time. But, so, the strategy that most of us are using is stay as healthy as you can, which has a lot of other benefits, until there’s some changes in the technology which might allow us to jump past that physical barrier.
Chris Kresser: Yeah, absolutely. And with the way things are going, it’s not at all inconceivable that that can happen.
Tips on Making Keto Fasting Work for You
Chris Kresser:So let’s kind of talk about some tips and tricks, so to speak, to make this work. So let’s say someone’s relatively new to fasting and they’re really struggling with appetite cravings during their periods of either the intermittent fasting or on the keto fast day. What do you suggest there?
Expect Cravings—At Least at First
Joseph Mercola: Well, that’s the beauty of intermittent fasting, at least after you’ve done it for a while and your body’s developed the metabolic flexibility to access your fat stores, break them down and create energy out of them. So, initially, if you’re part of the 80 percent of the population who is insulin resistant, you’re not able to do that or do that well, then you’re going to have cravings, That is normal. This is natural.
It’s exactly what you’d predict and expect because your glucose levels have dropped and you need energy to burn. You can’t burn the stored fat that you have in your body. It’s just inaccessible to you as an energy source. So what you have to do is sort of struggle through it, and for most people it’s typically not longer than two or three weeks unless you’re really metabolically damaged, and in that case, it may take a few months. But in that process, you can, as I think mentioned earlier, you can have some healthy fats like coconut oil, which is probably the least expensive. And even better would be MCT oil. And even better than that would be a caprylic acid, or C8, which is a subtype of MCT oil, it’s just a little bit more expensive. But the benefit of these is they all convert to eventually ketones or fatty acids that are a) easily digested so you don’t you take enzymes with them, and then b) rapidly converted to energy and can give you that missing energy you need until your body is able to make the transition.
So once you’ve achieved that flexibility though, which I said for most people is going to be within that month that you’re doing the intermittent fasting, then you’ll know. You just aren’t hungry, and I’m sure you can testify to this as can hundreds if not thousands of your patients who have made this transition, is hunger is not an issue.
Chris Kresser: Yeah. Yeah, it’s actually the opposite. In my experience and in the experience of many of my patients is when that ketone production starts, you get less hungry and you can actually go for longer periods without feeling those cravings, Even then, when you’re eating food, which is really again, counterintuitive for most people, but I’ve had so many people say that. And that’s been my experience too.
Joseph Mercola: Yes, it’s just amazing. So that doesn’t discount the fact that some people may have a psychological craving. Not a physiological, but a psychological. And they just want something in their mouth, want to chew on something.
Chris Kresser: Absolutely.
Joseph Mercola: So what I do, I have the good fortune of living in Florida. So I have over a thousand aloe plants. And every day I cut off, like, two or three leaves and I just suck on the gel. I think that has a lot of good health benefits aside from helping address that issue. Which I don’t really need it for that issue. But it’s kind of nice. It’s just like you’re chewing on something that essentially has no calories.
Chris Kresser: Right, yeah. Absolutely. So another thing that we both are big believers in, which I mean I sometimes think of, if we’re thinking about optimizing health, also optimizing health span. Not just life span, but health span. What are the biggest levers? Obviously, a healthy, nutrient-dense, real-food diet, I think fasting and periods of ketosis are at the top of the list. And I would also put sauna at the top and hot and cold and possibly cycling between those two at the top of the list too.
Complement Your Fasting with Sauna
Joseph Mercola: Yes.
Chris Kresser: And I know you’re a big believer in that too. So how do you cycle sauna use into this protocol or this approach that you’re doing? Tell us a little bit more about your approach there.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, well, I’m absolutely on the same page as you. There’s no question that I believe that this cyclical use of exposure to hot and cold will help improve your health, It’s just pretty well … there’s many studies that strongly suggest, that’s certainly the Finns, but they use a traditional sauna, which is a little bit more challenging than what is readily available in the US since you go to one of these big institutions.
Chris Kresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: So what most people are using in their home, because it’s so much more convenient … and in Finland almost everyone has a sauna in their home, right?
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: I don’t think you can feel at home without a sauna.
Chris Kresser: Pretty much, yeah. They’re just there.
Joseph Mercola: But it’s miserably cold there most of the year.
Chris Kresser: Yeah, yeah.
Joseph Mercola: So, anyway, here in the US we don’t do that. So most people have resorted to using infrared saunas. And that was to have been the rage for a long time. There’s some major problems with them which I’d like to address. So they initially started as the far-infrared saunas and almost all the initial units had really high EMF, specifically the magnetic fields. They were through the roof. So you’d be damaging yourself from a molecular perspective from exposure to these frequencies.
But then we … there’s other issues with that. And I was convinced that you could modulate the far-infrared to be the best sauna, so much so that when I was at Bulletproof in 2017, there was an exhibitor there named Brian Richards who founded the company SaunaSpace. And he seemed like a bright guy, so I went and had a discussion with him. I wanted to be respectful, but my intention was to sort of decimate him with these arguments. And it turns out the exact opposite, and he decimated me. Because he converted me to this understanding of the amazing benefits of near-infrared saunas.
Chris Kresser: Yes.
Joseph Mercola: And one of the primary ones is that the sun, people don’t understand it, but 40 percent of rays from sunlight radiation are infrared.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: Mostly near-infrared. I mean there’s some far, but it’s mostly near. So that would strongly suggest that regular exposure to these frequencies is probably a good idea.
Chris Kresser: Yeah. And just so you know, I have a SaunaSpace.
Joseph Mercola: Oh, you do?
Chris Kresser: And Brian has been on the podcast. I have the EMF-free SaunaSpace.
Joseph Mercola: Oh, I’m so glad to hear that.
Chris Kresser: So, yeah, we’re big believers in that as well.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, I love Brian. I did an interview with him too and he’s just, I mean, he absolutely converted me to this understanding. So I’m preaching to the choir with your group.
Chris Kresser: With the listeners, yeah.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, yeah. So I’ll skip over that. Just listen to your previous interview.
Chris Kresser: Oh no, it’s great. I’m just curious like how do you, do you time, do you do any specific timing with the sauna?
Joseph Mercola: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I was going to go further into the details of the difference between the far and the near. But let me just mention that, you have the EMF-free one?
Chris Kresser: I do, yeah.
Joseph Mercola: Okay. Now, so then you know. That’s the exact same one I use. And it is, in my view, the best sauna on the market. It is not the most convenient sauna to use or practical, but it is the best from a health perspective. Because it helps put your body into a parasympathetic mode.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: Because you’re shielding all the frequencies coming up. The whole sauna is grounded and you’re just getting these healthy benefits and just putting your body in a state which you could benefit from to detoxify.
So one of the, as I mentioned or alluded to earlier, when you’re doing the partial fasting, unlike intermittent fasting, even in intermittent fasting, you’re going to stimulate autophagy to a degree. But a relatively minor degree compared to what you do with keto fasting. So the morning after your keto fast, you are really going to be excreting toxins. So one of the ways that you can help facilitate the excretion of those toxins through your sweat is through regular use of the near-infrared sauna.
Now if you can’t afford the $8,000 of the EMF-free SaunaSpace, and many people can’t and there’s nothing wrong with that, then you can get a less expensive version. They sell them, SaunaSpace does, of course, but you can even go and use sauna therapy by purchasing the book Sauna Therapy for Detoxification and Healing by Lawrence Wilson and make one yourself.
Chris Kresser: Absolutely.
Joseph Mercola: Just be careful in choosing the materials wisely because you are heating this thing up. And if you’ve got toxic materials in there, you’re going to be breathing them in and you’re just sort of defeating your purpose of doing it.
Chris Kresser: Yeah. And just to clarify to the listeners, the basic SaunaSpace unit, the bulbs are shielded from EMF. So they’re in Faraday cages and you’re not getting EMF exposure from the bulbs. The difference with the full EMF protective units is that it’s shielding EMF from outside of the sauna, from coming in. And so it’s got a liner around the whole sauna that keeps ambient EMF from coming in the sauna. So I just wanted to clarify that Brian’s really good about, even with the basic sauna, that there’s no EMF exposure from the bulbs themselves.
Joseph Mercola: Yes, and part of the reason for them, let me continue to improve the clarification, is that not only is the shielding there, but that shielding is grounded.
Chris Kresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: Which allows to dissipate the electrical fields that you’re exposed to straight down to the ground. So you’ve got to be careful about the grounding component too.
Chris Kresser: Absolutely. So, just to put this all together, the week would look like you’ve got your intermittent fast day, a keto fast day. The next morning would be sauna use, and then that’s going to be your hard strength training day and your refeed day.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, and let me tell you another benefit that’s happening, because I forgot to mention this—and I’m not even sure if I put it in the book—but when you are partial fasting, your growth hormone increases by about 200 to 300 percent,
Now, you’re going to say that doesn’t make sense. How does that happen? Because we know that growth hormone normally stimulates IGF-1, and when you have IGF-1, that is an absolute shutdown for autophagy. But what happens is that the liver becomes relatively—where many of these growth hormone receptors are—becomes resistant. The receptors to it become resistant. So you do get lower IGF-1 levels. But you still get the high growth hormone.
So what you want to do on the days of the partial fast before you eat your magical refeed feast, that’s when you strength train. You do not eat food while you’re strength training. Do it fasting,
Chris Kresser: Important clarification.
Joseph Mercola: And you’ll radically improve the benefits.
Chris Kresser: Yeah, absolutely, important clarification there, just for sequencing. So you’ve got your sauna, or you exercise. I like to exercise before I use the sauna because I find that I sweat more readily, more quickly.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah.
Chris Kresser: If we’re splitting hairs here.
Joseph Mercola: No, no, no, no. Ideally, in my case I see a personal trainer and I go to his studio, so it’s pragmatically impractical for me to do that.
Chris Kresser: Right, right.
Joseph Mercola: So I do a little bit of different exercise. I’ll do bodyweight exercises and maybe go on my elliptical. But my strength training is after it.
Chris Kresser: Yeah, and we’re talking about the last few percent here in terms of optimization.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah.
Eat at Your Normal Time on Refeed Days
Chris Kresser: You’ll still get a huge benefit if you’re not able to sequence it in the perfect way that we’re talking about. But I know my listeners are really into optimizing as much as possible. So I like to at least lay it out there. So, yeah, then you do your refeed that day and you’re feeling like a million bucks. When you do the refeeds, and even just the compressed six- to eight-hour window in general, I know I get a lot of questions about this from patients, how do you approach it? Do you eat just a couple meals, typically? Or do you eat more than a couple meals during that period? What’s your personal approach?
Joseph Mercola: Well, it’s not much different than my normal day except I eat more food. So instead of having two eggs in my salad, I have three eggs.
Chris Kresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: And instead of having vegan protein in my smoothie, I switch over to whey concentrate. So I have a lot more branched chain amino acids. I change the ratio of those things around. And it’s the sequencing and the timing, the cycling that is so important, and it’s so massively overlooked. If you don’t understand and you get the timing off, you’re going to sabotage most of your benefits.
Chris Kresser: Yeah. So you’re basically eating, sitting down and eating the same number of times, you’re just adding some more calories and you’re also switching maybe the type and the amount of protein and carbs.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, and if you’re going to eat later, that would be the day to eat later. Now, let me caution you, especially if you have an Oura ring, and you probably know this already if you do, that on that day that you’re strengthening and you’re really pushing it, your readiness score is going to go down the next day. Maybe by 10 or 20 points. Typically 20 points.
Chris Kresser: Yeah, yeah.
Joseph Mercola: So don’t be surprised. That’s good.
Chris Kresser: That’s fine, that’s part of the normal cycling in and out.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah.
Chris Kresser: That’s the cycle of catabolism, We never defined these terms, but let me just do this, this process of breakdown, which is a necessary component of life. And then анаболизм is repair and regrowth. So it’s just breakdown and cycling between catabolism and anabolism that we’re going for in this protocol. So it shouldn’t be alarming that you see the readiness score drop. Because that’s just part of that cycle.
Joseph Mercola: Yeah, and what we’re doing with this is, as you mentioned right in the beginning, we’re replicating ancestral patterns which has just essentially been abandoned by the typical diet.
Chris Kresser: Absolutely. Well, I’m really excited about this strategy. We’ve actually already started using it in the clinic with patients.
Joseph Mercola: Yahoo!
Chris Kresser: And are having some good results. So we typed up a whole thing and directing them to your book and your cookbook. And then we, it’s pretty close. That’s why I was so excited when I saw your book, it’s very close to what I was already doing. But I really like how you kind of systematized it. And the patients are finding it really easy to follow and they’re getting some, I think, some really good results. So I’m excited about the book. It’s called KetoFast, And then there’s also, you mentioned the cookbook. When is KetoFast out and then when is the KetoFast Cookbook out?
Joseph Mercola: KetoFast comes out, I believe, April 30th and the cookbook will be out shortly after that, within a week or two, I think.
Chris Kresser: Потрясающие. Yeah, and the cookbook is super helpful too because I think this will be a little bit of a new approach for people in just getting a sense of what they can be eating during these various phases is really helpful.
Joseph Mercola: Well, let me just tell you how delighted I am to hear your endorsement for this process because myself personally and most of our staff have enormous respect for your clinical wisdom and judgment and your ability to articulate these things. And the fact that we sort of paralleled on the same conclusion is just remarkably reaffirming.
Chris Kresser: Yeah, I love that too. And I’m an early adopter, as I know you are. You’re probably the earliest of the early adopters. So I have great appreciation for all the work you’ve done and the way you’ve moved the conversation forward over and over again on many of these different topics. So thanks for putting this out there.
The book is KetoFast and then the KetoFast Cookbook, Highly recommend it. It’s really the best way that I’ve seen so far of safely and effectively implementing fasting and ketogenic diet. And avoiding some of the pretty significant risks and downsides to ongoing ketogenic dieting and water fasting. So definitely check it out, and, Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed our chat. And what’s next for you at this point?
Joseph Mercola: Well, I interestingly listened to an interview that Tim Ferriss did with Peter Drucker. Not Peter Drucker, Jim Collins.
Chris Kresser: Right.
Joseph Mercola: You’ve probably heard, but his mentor was Peter Drucker.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: And I was surprised to find out that Peter, who’s really one of the icons in the business world, wrote two-thirds of his book after the age of 65.
Chris Kresser: Ah, interesting.
Joseph Mercola: So that was a real inspiration to me because I hit 65 this year. And an affirmation that I really do enjoy writing and I’ve got this really good, I’ve got to share this RSS feed with you that you can get to PubMed.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: So I’ve reviewed about 2,000 articles a year now.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: Not the abstracts, but the actual articles.
Chris Kresser: Yeah.
Joseph Mercola: So I’m just writing books. My next one is EMF. That should be hopefully out either later this year or early next year. And then one on longevity, which is probably five books, I think.
Chris Kresser: Yeah, yeah. It’s a big topic that’s for sure. Well, great, well, we’ll look forward to the next one and have a wonderful weekend. Pleasure to talk to you.
Joseph Mercola: All right, thanks.
Chris Kresser: Отлично. Отлично.
Now, I’d like to hear from you. Are you interested in trying keto fasting? What health concerns are you trying to address? Comment below and let me know—and don’t forget to submit your questions on ChrisKresser.com/podcastquestion,